New Poll
After recently watching a NOVA episode online, about the Dover, PA court case on intelligent design being taught in the public school classroom, I've found myself wondering what others believe about the origins of life on earth and the processes that have brought life to the point its at today. Considering I have a diverse readership, I've become quite curious about what y'all might believe on these matters. Two polls have been added to my sidebar on these subjects. One asking your beliefs on how life has developed here on earth, from creationism/ID alone, with all life having come about at the same time and originally in the form we observe life in today, from evolutionary theory without a creator, or from a mix of both, perhaps with an intelligent designer overseeing the process of natural selection. The second question is for believers in creationism/ID, inquiring about your beliefs on the age of the earth. Is the earth "young" at just 4000 years old or do you believe the age to be greater, and hence live on an "old" earth?
As with all polls here on the Clothesline, please feel free to elaborate on your thoughts on this post, if you feel so led.
32 comments:
Mrs Amy, I want to weigh in on this in a little while, because our belief is different from the normal either young or old earth views. We believe 100% in creation. We also believe in a relatively young earth. However, we also believe there was a gap of 1000 years between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. Lol how is that for confusing. We don't believe that the earth "evolved" during that 1000 years, though, we believe it is that gap of time where Lucifer and the other angels fell into sin.
Biblical evidence for that? I'll be back. :-)
Amy,
I have often wondered what you thought about this subject! I was excited to see this post....especially because evolutionary biology, microbiology, cellular physiology, and neuroscience are deep loves of mine!
I am a Christian, and I also believe in the theory of evolution. Most Christians who float around on blog world are ultra right wing and have their own opinions concerning this subject. Even you and I may differ in opinion Amy. :)
I was raised by my church to believe that the earth and the hundreds of billions of galaxies surrounding earth were only about 6,000 years old. I believed what I was taught from men who had absolutely NO scientific training, who had done no scientific research, and who had not even bothered to intelligently look at the evidence. I simply, blindly accepted it.
If you or anyone else believes differently than I do...it is not my intent to offend. This is just my point of view...and don't ostracize me for my belief in evolution either please! :)
When I grew up, married, started my own family...I decided that I had better know what I believe and why. I started researching and reading everything I could get my hands on. I read everything. I read Richard Dawkins, Stephen Hawking, Brian Greene, and so many more. The "Ancestor's Tale" by Dawkins was especially insightful as it provided a linear map of evolutionary biology. I started out with the question, "How on earth did we come from monkeys!?" but as my study progressed I realized that this was not the hard question in evolution. It easily answers it...believe it or not.
Science is not religion. It is not accepted 100% at face value. If a scientist discovers that he/she is wrong in their assumptions they will delight in discovering the truth. Science is not dogma. It is not a set code of laws.
I quite frequently get the impression from fundamental Christians that they have not even considered the scientific facts! People who shun science frighten me, because they are relying on a faulty set of assumptions concerning humanity and our environment. I do not expect everyone else to believe as I do, but I do expect that everyone will be intelligent about their beliefs.
I believe that God created the heavens and the earth. I believe in ID to the fullest. After careful consideration of numerous scientific studies I do believe in evolution. There is a reason why it is a theory. For the record....if you believe in the Theory of gravity then you must also give credence to the theory of evolution. In order for a hypothesis to become a theory the scientific community must be presented by a well-tested model supported by a vast wealth of evidence. The word theory is misleading to most people who aren't aware of it's weighty meaning in the scientific world.
I can't specify one reason why I believe in evolution as God's manner of creating, because there exists a wealth of evidence in support of the concept. But if I had to pinpoint one piece of the puzzle it would have to be as follows.
I believe God to be a being of order and beauty. God is infinite and our small human perceptions cannot limit Him...though we often think we can figure God out. Why would God leave such direct evidence in favor of evolution if it were untrue? Why is it impossible for God to have created everything in such a way? Why? I think that the idea simply scares a lot of Christians who are trained from a young age to distrust science, and any knowledge that comes from outside the church. I would think that God's fingerprints would be detectable by both church bishops and worldly scientists alike. God is truly Great! His creation would make sense.
I love and welcome debate...being scientifically minded...I do not fear people who believe differently from me. Please do not see my beliefs as an attack on your own, and please, please, please do not label me because I believe in this theory! My only request is that people take the time to do a bit of reading from a variety of authors who actually study and research this material. Be smart...and think outside the box.
love,
Sarah
One other point...the book "The Selfish Gene" by Dawkins lays the ground world for an understanding of how evolution works on a genetic level. It is a masterpiece work and I highly recommend it even if you vehemently despise the idea of evolution.
Also, I wanted to clarify another point. We did not come from monkeys. We came from the creative and loving mind of God. (my belief) God uses DNA (study it!) to form and grow his creation.
Could you add an option to your Earth's age poll for those of us who are as confused as all get out on the matter and couldn't choose one way or another to save our lives? =)
And perhaps an option for "creationism/adaptation" for the first poll (unless adaptation is a given under creationism)?
Those are what I'd choose, anyway. My most recent biology class really made some things difficult for me.
I realize I'm in the minority on this, but I still want to elaborate. I believe in a mixture of evolution and ID. I believe that the Biblical creation story is not intended to be taken literally, but, like many Biblical stories, is intended as the transmission of the belief system (including myths) of the Hebrew people. Other parts of the Bible should be taken literally--the stories of Moses and the Patriarchs, for example, and the laws outlined in Leviticus and other books.
That said, I believe that God created a miraculous system by which life and the earth were created and continue to be created in new and wonderful ways throughout time. This system, when applied to life, is called evolution. When applied to the earth, it is called the earth sciences, chemistry, and physics.
As Galileo believed of the heliocentric system, I believe that these systems speak volumes of the omnipotence and omnipresence of God. To me it is far more miraculous that God created natural laws that produce infinite variation than the idea that God created a static universe. Please understand that I write this with no malice or sense of superiority towards Creationists. Their faith is admirable. But Creationism fails to fill me with awe and wonder for God's Creation in the same way that a Western Scientific understanding of it does.
I believe in Creationism/ID and that God oversaw MICRO evolution---NOT the evolution theory that is taught in schools. I believe that God allowed for and generated adaptation--meaning that animals will change overtime to changes in there environment but will not change into a completely different species (as the evolution theory claims.)
Mrs. W- I've read numerous writings that make mention of the issues you have brought up. :o)
Sarah- Science and theology are both passions of mine. Reading your thoughts was interesting. Reconciling with what we know about the natural world and what teachings, both past and present, have been about the Bible is a topic I ponder frequently. It often seems the lack of science literacy in our society perpetrates much misunderstanding and outright superstition about science, with particular schools of study in particular, and thus these issues are never thoroughly considered in the intellectual religious world. Consider many medical doiscoveries that have been discovered and made possible thanks to the theory of evolution. How can an outright disdain for this theory be display and hatred shown for the scientists who dedicate their lives to these studies, perhaps calling these folks atheists and directing other such hostility their way, all whole reaping the benefits that their study of this theory has brought about? I certainly have no ill will towards those who believe differently than do I, nor would be so bold as to call the previously mentioned line of thinking hypocrisy, considering many people may not understand in full the wonders that have only come to pass thanks to the study of genetics and so forth, but this thinking is problematic for many reasons. My concerns are especially great when it comes to the the future development of medicine and similar areas of study that seek to unravel the mysteries of the universe and bring great benefits to humanity. Just my humble thoughts anyway. :o)
Rin- I tried to edit my poll per your request but am not able to, for whatever reason. I cannot even correct my typo in the question of the first poll. *sigh*
Harper- Sean and I join you in the minority as we believe something similar.
The old testament of the Bible was written by Bronze Age men for Bronze age people. Sometimes I wonder....was Genesis literal? My personal belief is obviously no. It was written in a way that the common people could understand at the time. (personal opinion) Evolution doesn't have to contradict the message of Christ at all! I do not understand why some Christians are so vehemently apposed to even the idea. My sincere love of Christ and my passion for science intermingle so that I do not have to separate the two. It boggles my mind really...how some people think it has to be either or.
In fact...in my perception the Theory of Evolution is a compliment to the loving, creative forces of God.
As far as science literacy goes....I am aghast at the lack of it in our country! I myself am no professional scientist. I am just a lay person who finds the subject intensely interesting. I think people need to read and ponder and research more.
Because God is a being of order and truth....science will discover these truths. God wouldn't deceive us! God doesn't hate science! I believe God loves a sharp mind and a questioning spirit. Not a rebellious spirit....but an inquisitive intelligent spirit.
In some ways I think that the concept of evolution causes some Christians to cringe with as you put it so well, "outright superstition". I was one of those people. It took me a few years of intense study (I am a book fanatic) and much pondering with my husband before I came to the conclusion that I did indeed believe in evolution. When you study it....it's not this scary thing that negates Christianity at all! There are atheist voices out there. Yes. But that doesn't mean I can't believe in God. That doesn't mean God isn't real and loving and eternal.
I have watched several Creationism/Evolution debates and have come to the conclusion that it is a difference in point of view. The Christians for some reason unbeknown to me....are unwilling to accept even the faintest bit of scientific proof and the Evolutionists are unwilling to see the hand of God in any of it. Why is this? Why the dichotomy? I just don't get it.
I also do not understand why there is a general trend to use only the Bible. Is science wrong? Is it evil? Is it something to be disdained?
There was a time when people thought the earth was the center of the universe...or they thought our planet was flat....or they might have thought that a utopia existed in our earth's core! What are we to do when scientific study...meticulous, methodical, professional scientific study...produces ideas that seem to be different from the Bible? Of course being a skeptic is a good thing when it comes to science. That is the whole point of science! Being skeptical of our place in the cosmos.
As to your concerns, I agree. God created our mind. Sin didn't create our desire to study our world. God created that.
Sorry for rambling! :)
A mix, although we plan to do Apologia(creation-based science) next year for homeschool. We agree with the MICRO evolution theory as well.
I tend to lean toward what Harper has said as well.
Harper,
This was very well said-
"To me it is far more miraculous that God created natural laws that produce infinite variation than the idea that God created a static universe."
I will keep it in my file of quotes if that's OK? :)
I voted that I thought the earth was young but that I believed in a mix of Evolution and ID.
However, after reading these comments I think that I think the earth is young b/c that is what I have been told.
Harper and Sarah made me stop and rethink. I am off to study for myself.
Kyla Jean
First, I have a minor in Science, so I am not ignorant when it comes to science or naïve. I firmly believe in Creation as God states in the Bible in seven literal days. It seems I am in the minority here, but will take God’s literal Word over man’s any day. It breaks my heart that so many people decide that man’s opinion and theories are smarter than God’s Word. I think that evolution has done much to chip away at the foundation of the Bible. If you can throw out one part of the Bible as being untrue, then how can one believe any of it? Furthermore, if humans evolved from other life forms, how do you explain God making man in HIS image? I understand that many people see evidence of evolution. I have studied it and much of the “evidence” that I have read has been refuted by other scientists. Henry Morris is a creationist who has written extensively on the subject. There is the Institute for Creation Research and others. I agree that God oversees the adaptation of species to their environment—but they remain the SAME species, they do not become a different species. I think that this really comes down to what or Who you decide to put your faith in. Creation or Evolution can neither one be proven scientifically, so you have to decide if you are going to believe God’s account or man’s account. One tries to explain away the need for a God. The other shows our need FOR God. If the Bible is not true, you do not need to admit you are a sinner and have a need for salvation. I often think that evolution is probably one of Satan’s favorite tricks that have led many people way from God and the Bible.
Becky- With all due respect, placing God into the narrow boxes of human thinking, human time, and the other basics of humanity could very easily be argued to be placing faith in man, for God is being defiled and made unholy to fit into our way of thinking, rather than being allowed to be the marvelous magnificent being we will simply never have opportunity to comprehend while we are here on earth. God is not man but far greater. His ways are not our ways and cannot be understood by us mere mortals. A hundred years which seems like such a long time if we are discussing the years in age of a human being is but a blip in time for a Creator who has existed for all eternity thus far and will continue to into the future.
In this conversation, not a single person has argued that God does not exist nor have they used evolution to explain away God's glory, but rather to share their beliefs in how natural processes may indeed be the hand of God in action. As Harper so eloquently expressed, evolution is far from the only scientific study that brings about the questions of old earth vs new earth, the origin of life, and the study of adaptation and genetic variance. It is, however, the only one that meets such harsh criticism despite not being the only theory that brings up doubts about man-made interpretations of a holy book inspired by the One Who our faulty human reasoning can never understand in full.
Denying the beauty and magnificence of God and questioning the sincerity of belief of siblings in faith are surely dirty tricks in the tool bag of the Adversary, too.
I believe in a literal 6-day creation, as recorded in the Genesis account. Evolution depends upon death but we are told in the Genesis account that death did not come into God's good, perfect and complete creation until the curse. Death is God's curse upon creation - he never utilized this to create. The Hebrew used for 'day' in the Genesis account means a literal, 24-hour period. I believe that God inspired the writer of Genesis to record a literal account. Ken Ham, president of Answers in Genesis, has written a very good book called The Lie (which can be downloaded for free here http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/the-lie/index.asp). He explains in it just why rejecting God's literal account of creation for the theory of evolution shakes the very foundations of Christian belief. Well worth reading.
I do not think that reading the Bible and believing that when God says “evening and morning were the first day”, “evening and morning were the second day”, believing that He created everything as we see it, etc. is placing God into the narrow box of human thinking. It is definitely not putting my faith in man. It is taking God at His Word, believing and trusting that what He says is true. I realize that there are many different theories about origins, however if they do not line up with God’s Word, I am going to choose His Word every time. I realize that one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day to God. I am glad that those who have posted on your blog believe in God, however there are many people who substitute evolution for God in their lives because they have been led away with this theory that can be and is used to explain away God by many. That is what breaks my heart. I never cease to be amazed at all that God has done and continues to do. I can not imagine going through a single day without being able to trust Him to take care of me, to help me through the difficult times. I do not question anyone’s sincerity, I think they are sincere in what they state they believe. I also think that this is a discussion that will continue, probably without many people changing their minds. It is difficult to put in a blog all that is in my heart. My goal is not to offend, but to get some to also see this view point that had not really been addressed much in the discussion thus far.
I was trained as a scientist, but I still believe in a young Earth, from reading Genesis 2, where Adam is created before the creation of plants, and Eve is created after the animals (several Creation days later).
At the same time, I don't wholly dismiss evidence for a much older Earth/universe/everything, but I know that all the science for it assumes that God has done absolutely nothing within the universe since setting up the Big Bang.
I also can't overlook the main proponents of the theory of evolution: those who don't want to acknowledge a God who will judge their actions and their hearts.
Becky,
I would never dream of labeling you anything. I do have a question for you though. Would you please specify for me why you think the word "evolution" and all that you think it means contradicts what Jesus did for us or anything that Jesus said. This is not an attack or an attempt to start a heated debate. I really would like to hear your opinion! You can email me if you like.
I do not believe that the opinions of man are smarter than God's word. I do not see any reason why the theory of evolution contradicts God's word at all really, but if you have a specific example of how it does I would be grateful for your input. As Amy put it so well...time does not contain God. A million years is nothing to Him.
I MUST make a comment about one aspect of your comment however. In evolution there are only genes. There aren't pigs, butterflies, and daisy's. Our eyes see the creature...not what the creature really is. We are what we are because of our DNA. Our bodies are survival machines built to function and survive in our designated habitat. Through the power engine of natural selection, evolution happens very slowly...at the micro rate. Very small, minute changes in DNA that offer a benefit to survival or reproduction, no matter how small, lead to bigger changes over the course of millions of years.
Do you think that the DNA of a chimpanzee looks different from the DNA of a human? I'm not talking about the phenotype characteristics. Does the actual DNA strand look different....species to species? No...Our DNA is the same exact thing. It is just arranged in a very slightly different order.
All life on earth is made up of 4 bases. That's it. You are not so different from a lilac bush! As I ponder this marvel....it brings me into a state of awe. A blade of green grass....the DNA in that grass seed utilizes the raw resources such as carbon and nitrogen that it can readily access, and builds a survival machine for it's self. DNA....it is really awesome to me....amazing!
What really separates a Zebra from a billy goat? A snail from a dolphin? A very small thing. Their genes. It's the genes that decide to program the organism for hair or for egg laying or for fins.
Harper said it brilliantly....
I believe we are made in the image of God....wow....when you think about it....wow. Maybe God didn't have eyes and ears and a nose like we have. Maybe what God was talking about was our DNA? Or something along these lines...
There really isn't any evidence that is widely accepted as actual evidence that evolution isn't how it happened.
just my thoughts.
Evolution does not depend upon death. Natural selection depends on the ability to reproduce and create new life!
Becky- Yet how do you account for everything you do not see and everything you cannot understand, or even everything we have yet to learn? How do you account for the studies of geology, chemistry, botany, and the other scientific disciplines that also bring about questions of youth earth theology? Or even the questions in the Bible, such as when precisely the revolting angels were kicked out of heaven or the fact you yourself mention of a human day being like a thousand years to God, that could bring a scholar or layman to a very different story of the earth's history, than being a mere 4000 years old? I am truly not asking to be cruel or dismissive but to better understand your position. All of these are important questions, I think, and ones that cannot simply be explained away by this is "how I feel". I used to be a youth earth creationist myself, until I actually read my Bible through the first time and was struck at many points I had never heard discussed before, ones for which answers cannot be found but rather fear and emotional based denials and casting asides. They also simply cannot be denied because of what's "in one's heart" as you have suggested in your comment, for in doing so, the deceitful condition of the human heart, as spoken of so bluntly in the Bible, is being denied.
At one point the theology of the day believed in witches that deserved to be burned at the stake, incubi that had sex with humans and could result in the creation of witches from said intercourse, a universe that revolved around the sun, and an earth that was flat. Many, many people were killed as results of these believes; people persecuted as they sought to question the theology of the Roman Catholic Church and unravel the mysteries of the world. Never did it occur to many during these days that perhaps God's hand was behind the marvels being explained by natural sciences, nor did people stop to ponder and consider that the talent and intellect possessed by the sciences were gifts from God. Instead, they killed people, without so much as a real trial as us moderns tend to believe a true Judeo-Christian justice system would demand.
The same principles can be seen in operation today, as religious people deny the great benefits afforded to us by technology, all while arrogantly sitting in a country where they have more than enough to eat, have access to adequate medical even when they have thought science to be evil, and so forth. One can easily expound with great passion the evils of a hospital, all to easily use one when they need one. Yet their beliefs may keep important medical technology out of places where it is needed, just as similar fears can keep new farming techniques, specially bred seeds, and so forth out of lands where they are so desperately needed to preserve the most human life.
Think of those who call the medical model of childbirth inherently evil. They will use empirical statistics & peer reviewed studies to justify their claim, missing the hypocrisy of doing so, which is bad enough for those who profess Christ to be doing. But even worse than that, they deny the fact that the technology found in hospitals could indeed be gifts from God to save mothers and children who would have died even one hundred years ago. The same, too, with treatment for many harsh illnesses and the research that brought them about. Evolution of cells, on the smallest of levels, accounts for much of what we know about debilitating and horrific diseases. It has brought about discoveries that help prevent birth defects and understand the causes of diseases that could be inherited. Not too long ago, much of this would have been considered of the devil, are all of us sinning to be using this today? Could there not be a chance an ungrateful spirit that spits on the important advances the Lord has willed us to have be a sin as well?
Also....I do not believe the Genesis account of creation is literal. It's a parable of sorts. Jesus was famous for that! Still....the foundations of my Christian faith are stronger than ever. It really makes me curious to understand why people put evolution into one box and christian belief into another. I do not get it....
Jesus spoke in parables. He spoke the divine truth always...yet he spoke in a way we could understand.
Evolution doesn't dampen my love or belief in God...it doesn't open up a door for cult or hypocritical beliefs to enter. I believe in God's word. I have never encountered a problem with my faith in God and my belief that He used evolution to create His world.
Additionally, not everything we today was has it has always been. Just look at the weaker minds of men in ages gone by. When we couldn't build the structures we can today or understand much of what we do now. Think of ages when mass literacy was not possible; when you and I couldn't even be typing this conversation nor understanding the implications of professing the faith we do. No longer do we live to the ends of our so-called "natural lives" but longer thanks to hand of God that produced scientific discovery in the field of medicine. Humans have indeed "evolved" in one sense of the world in this regards and so, too, have the animals around us, as they have needed to "adapt" to the new surroundings as man has continued to take dominion over the natural earth.
And to end a long winded comment, I was struck, upon the first time I read through the Bible, to realize in full all of the storytelling and parable sharing that Jesus really does. it's far more than I realized from my youthful Sunday School days. It's clear to me, through knowing the nature of God as man, that God uses parables and myths--oftentimes with realistic elements-- to explain his ways to us mere mortals. I think that's fascinating to realize and could possibly lend credence to those who see parts of the OT as the same. A loving human father explains in terms his children can understand, even if it does not give full understanding of a situation, for he does not want to cause confusion. Could our Heavenly Father really be any different than the loving fathers on earth?
Before I close, I must admit that, yes, you are right, Becky, you certainly are not going to change my mind. I've read much of what everybody is suggesting and held it up to Scripture, both when it comes to creationists and evolutionists. As a believer in both evolution and ID, I do not believe either to have the full truth, but to have been gifted with a glimpse into the nature of man and all the other life on earth. Evolution on the genetic level is especially fascinating, in light of the Fall, for it's precisely what has brought much suffering into the world, thanks to the diseases and maladaptive characteristics such a process can cause. As someone who suffers with auto-immune illness and has much of this in her family, I can't help but be intrigued by such matters. Surely lupus, hughes syndrome, celiac disease, MS, and the other diseases that can be explained by this sort of evolution are not the original plan of a loving benevolent God, but perhaps a system put into place when the world went awry...
Amy,
Very well put and insightful. May I save this comment with your name attached?
Sarah
Sarah- Please feel more than free. :o)
Sarah-
Of course you may quote me. I love being quoted ;D
harper
Sarah, Harper, and anybody else interested- I couldn't find the link yesterday, but wanted to pass along a bit of writing I thought y'all might be interested in. This website discusses evolution from the standpoint of one school of thought in the Orthodox Church and is absolutely fascinating: http://www.theandros.com/protozoe.html
Orthodox Christians interpret Scripture in a different way than do the majority of our Protestant siblings in the faith, doing so in a contextual way, as opposed to a literal way. In light of this, science and where it works into Scripture is discussed and considered in a markedly different fashion that in many other denominations. One school of thought is called the 'Compatibilists' who believe that science and scripture provide revelations from the Lord that complement one another. The other school of thought is that of the "Incompatibilists' who believe science and Scripture can be incompatible yet do not believe this causes science to be an inappropriate area of study nor it's theories and discoveries inappropriate for the Church to believe.
I think, Sarah, you might especially enjoy the points the article's author brings up about the cells, what evolution actually means, and the differences between evolution, Darwinism, and the ideas brought forward in the "Origin of Species" :o)
There are also numerous books published from the Orthodox theology perspective on science and how discoveries fit into biblical revelation that are absolutely fascinating and leave me absolutely in awe of the glory of our Creator. Much that is published from the Orthodox view does the same; taking God/Jesus out of the small stereotype in which He has been cast and letting Him shine through in all of His splendor, or at least all I can understand as a mere mortal. Words cannot express it....:D
I do incline toward a six day creation, but to be frank, the only reason I do so is that I lack the degree of comprehension of the relevant science that would allow me to intelligently grasp the arguments presented for the other side. I don't lose any sleep over the possibility (nay, the likelihood) of Old Earth Design; if anything, I can even more fully appreciate the glory of God in the notion that He could be so infinite in His wisdom to know exactly, from the beginning, what would come of the split and growth of each individual cell, the oh so subtle, magnificently microscoptic variations in genetic makeup . . . the billions of possibilities, all foreknown before they were even begun. The idea gives me the best sort of chills, really.
I am therefore currently a far cry from my teenage, Six-Day-Creation-Must-Be-the-Only Way self! I still remember the first day it occurred to me that this could be wrong. I picked up one of my mum's copies of Answers in Genesis and read an article that declared to deny six day creation was to undermine the glory of God. I dropped that thing so fast you'd have thought it burned my hand! I thought "wait a minute, NOBODY can do that. God simply IS, no matter what any of us believe."
My viewpoint underwent a pretty radical shift shortly thereafter; while, as I said, I still incline toward the six day creation, it is really because I don't know enough and have not yet found the time to educate myself on the other possibility. I trust in God's patience with me to allow me to find the time to do so before I finally make up my mind for good ;)
Either way, God IS. There can be no lessening of Him, no matter which of these methods He chose to bring us all into being. We would, of course, love to presume to have such power; to lessen God by our disbelief. It is one of our greatest human failings, I think, that we try to box God in and mould Him in a shape of our own choosing, when in fact the very idea that we could ever do such a thing is tragically laughable.
Andrea- It is one of our greatest human failings, I think, that we try to box God in and mould Him in a shape of our own choosing, when in fact the very idea that we could ever do such a thing is tragically laughable.
Yes! This was the point I was trying to make in my earlier comments but seem to fail to have done so as eloquently as you have. When we make the existence of God depend, as you have said--on belief or disbelief, or when we do not allow God to exist outside of the narrow ways of thinking and existing that make up our human minds and bodies, do we not deny the glory of our Creator, hide part of His greatness? In admitting we may not know, in considering other possibilities, in humbly realizing we can never unravel all the mysteries of the universe, there is not some terrible thing to be scared of, but a beauty in the realization that God is NOT man, but something greater.
I had to laugh at your comment about making your mind up for good, as I wonder if us faithful can ever do that, really. Scientists certainly do not, looking for and anticipating fine tuning of theories or outright changes and rebuttals as more of the natural world is unwound and understood. For most of us, is faith and theology really all that different? As we meander through life, exposed to more, allowed to see different hints of God's glory and so forth, we are sharpened to understand more and grasp concepts our young, more spiritually immature mind could not handle. Just think of how many of us had some wild ideas as teenagers. :P Such a learning process, one that never ends, is fantastic to me, as it shows God leading and teaching us throughout life, allowing us to learn from our mistakes, to sharpen ourselves, to have our clay molded. :D
I believe in a relatively young earth, and in a literal six day creation. I also believe the preponderance of scientific evidence is on the side of ID, and don't think that it in any way puts God in a box any more than a theory of man does. :) Interesting to see this after an entire week of dissecting scientific study after study and scripture after scripture on this very topic! :)
Oh, and I chose old earth...not because I believe in the gap theory or macro evolution or anything else of that sort, but because when you study the timeline as given in the Bible, there are huge gaps of time...because of how the fathers are listed etc. Personally I think that the earth is AT LEAST 20,000 old. Millions and billions? No. But not 4-6 thousand, either.
What a polite conversation for a hot potato topic!
I think my thoughts on the subject (whilst I am hardly an expert) are close to your own. I also think both evolution and the creation story should be taught to children.
To me a far bigger scientific question than whether or not evolution occured is where life first came from. Our scientists can only theorize at the moment.
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